What type of vehicle in the accident?

oops...wrong one....soz

.

Hmmm... no more info here.

Where did you see that Garry. They only describe a Troopcarrier.

I have owned one for many years.....used extensively in the mining industry who are very very safety conscious....I wonder if instead it is a user problem and proper training is required.

.

In any honest assesment of these things there are always contributing factors
and a better driver reduces the risks Redbakk.

But don't anyone kid you, this is a well studied issue and only one factor dominates the overall 4wd death rate, and that is simply centre of gravity (Static Stabilty Factor).

I can't find a pic anywhere... do you mean like mine an Arkana??

This then would have to apply to most 4WD's and therefore needs to be made known to all drivers of such vehicles, whether owners or renters of such.

The fact that most users of this type of vehicle plan to take it off the made road (bitumen) and traverse the type of terrain that is not controlled (ie slippery, slopey, angled, steep, soft, rutted, muddy,etc etc).

And thus my point, user must be informed and or trained in the use of such.

.

Hi Redbakk

You would get little arguement about training being useful , but our statistics show this to be the minor part of the problem and the vehicles dynamics to be the major part.

Albeit 20 years ago, I worked in a mine in the N.E. Goldfields and they were rolled regularly on the mine site. Near the office we had large tanks for the water reclaimed from the tailings. There was a slight camber at the base, not sure of the gradient/angle, nothing too severe, but if you were doing more than 25km/h coming around them there was a fairly good chance you'd end up on your side.

Other vehicles at higher speeds were fine.

What a load or rubbish.......20 years ago eh!....well I am still working at mine and for the last 31 years and guess what no roll over and we have run over a few.

IF you going to cotribute at least make it credible....where is your evidence!!!!.

.

More boring commentary on Troopy bashing. Come on Robin, share the research you have been basing your arguments on and not just speculative and popularistic comment of the ill informed. Should take you about 5 minutes to post if your claims are correct?? Waiting mate!!

You have mixed me up with other peoples comments Leigh , as the above shows I have made no comment on that vehicle but rather on those with poor SSF.

If you wish to put a spin on things - maybe you could start with the link refferred to below and watch the video afterwards to confirm you answer..

Robin....Funny... I thought they said THE DRIVER lost control and not the vehicle or any mention of poor SSF.....you must have missed that part...silly you.

But lets not allow the facts to get in the way of a good story.

.

What did you expect them to say Redbakk -> "the vehicle lost control of itself"
but then I don't use channel 7 news reporters as a factual basis for anything.

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

Redbakk , if that were even remotely true then we would never fit ABS Stability control or better tyres to any car.

The drivers overall are essentially a constant i.e. you will always get 1% of idiot drivers, but massively different vehicle based death rates.

The only thing that has changed over the years is the saftey technology built into the cars and roads.

You can't be serious when you imply any car can't be blamed when there are endless cases of this since Ralph Nadars book "Unsafe at any speed" caused model after model to be canned.

Even this year the American president had to listen to the last few seconds of a familys life as there Toyota accelerated constantly into obliven.

When chasing a 2nd hand Troopy years ago 4 of the ones in the yards I looked at had been on there side. Eventually I bought a new one & when up the High Country found it to be the most unstable vehicle I'd ever owned particually when loaded. It picked up a front wheel very easily in the hills probably due to the large overhang, skinny tyres, tall body & narrow track.
It made a great desert tourer but I had to get rid of the thing before I layed it on its side myself.
Cheers Craig..........

This photo is not the best example but the dam thing always seemed to lift a wheel whether going up or down.

And Robin..you cannot be serious and believe that abs and stability control would prevent a roll over after it slid over the edge of that decline and since only a few vehicles have those "drivers aids" you also cannot single out a vehicle....for all that you still need to drive to conditions...as I said 31 years in mining has taught me that all vehicles can be operated safely and without incident as long as the operator is in control.....therfore you cannot make broad assumptions based an few questionable events....toyota's are sold world wide for many years now and love them or hate them they are the premimium choice of most mining companies who hold their employees safety in high regard...so you out of depth and have no expertise in this area.

and for who missed the rply with out the so called naughty bit ( I mean really)her it is
.What you dont seem to realize Robin is that any vehicle sliding off that road would have rolled down that cliff despite all your theories....so you cannot blame the vehicle no matter what it was.....or are you so biased in your thinking or believe that you have superior knowledge.....It has to come down experience, knowledge and driving to conditions and even training....consider the number of 4WD's and even heavy equipment and even tractors that would have suffered a similar fate in those same circumstances.

Around our pit when it rains the surface is so slippery that D11's and CAT 793's and EUCLID R260's slide all over the place not only troopy',s wagon's and utes ( all TOYOTA'S) and yet with driver training there have been NO roll overs....only collisions.

You have to drive to conditions and driver training helps a lot.( bit with certain reference deleted for the good of all)

The mining industry with all their accident investigations have never blamed the vehicle, ANY VEHICLE, only what the operator did at the time that contributed to the incident.............I have seen management SACK operators BUT NEVER stop using or banning any vehicle involved in an incident....doesn't that alone prove how stupid it to make such silly assertions......31 years mate...that's a lot of proof.

Hey Crackles...looks to me like he is punishing the beast ( love the red colour) and that is exactly what I am saying...why do people try and drive like that...where's the fire....troopys and utes will climb and descend in slow go (easy does) without all the rock throwing, dust busting, red lining, rip and go stuff.

check this out...NP Pajero Roll Over Accident http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeYmDOzoibk

So you can see by this video that it is easy to roll something anything but when Mitsubishi designed it they were not thinking of this operator and despite all the features and drivers aids it still rolled.

Hi Guys

I thought everybody would have read the police research reports we have refferred to in the past on this subject.

For those that have not check out

http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc184.html

This document is one of many that following an increase in rollovers on commodore and rodeo divisional vans etc after rear pods were fitted went deeply into the subject of stability analysis.

It specifically includes all of the points made above and directly states that C of G is prime culprit and that Troop carrier type lancruisers have 3 times the roll rate of your standard Patrols etc .
(Tip over angles 39 & 48 respectivly.)

The report has detailed technical information and also points to further info showing how you can improve whatever vehicle you have by lowering it (or not raising it) etc

Well Robin I read the report and as I suspected you have taken comments out of context to try to support your point in this discussion.

To the report.
The test were carried out for two reasons,
(for the Victorian police fleet by Monash University)
1. The rate of rollover crashes for each type of vehicle ( as used by the Victorian police and it’s relevant application or purpose)
2. To examine the stability and dynamic handling characteristics ( as used by the Victorian police and it’s relevant application or purpose suitability)

Section 2.2.2 then goes on to explain the two tests that would applied so as to determine the way each of the fleet vehicles would behave.
From this the department could identify critical areas that would expose the driver to excessive risk but it must be stated that Toyota Landcruiser is not one of the vehicles under scrutiny here, Holden Commodore and Holden Rodeo are.
The others were included for comparison only.
Considering that the two Holden vehicles being investigated here are in response to crashes that were occurring with these vehicles in connection with their purpose and application.
(Refer to section 1 Introduction page 6)

Page 7 section 2.2 Then goes on to explain the contributing factors that have to be in play to cause the crash or rollover but it must be remembered that you have to operate or take the vehicle to that point and again as I stated before if you have this knowledge and know the vehicle’s limits you are going to drive or operate it an a safe manner.
But accidents occur because of errors, lack of judgement, external contributing factors, etc.
Accidents can also occur when a vehicle is used beyond its original purpose for which was not designed, for instance using a 40 seater school bus as a high speed pursuit vehicle, it was never designed for that purpose, but is good for carrying passengers safely if operated properly.

Section 3 deals with the two tests and their results.

Section 4 is the summery of the findings.
Here the original tests for to compare the Holden Commodore as compared with the rest of the fleet but also highlighted the Holden Rodeo as well.

Section 5 deals with the conclusions of the report.
It goes on to give comparisons of the entire fleet concerning the vulnerability of each of the vehicles when subjected to those conditions and it’s suitability of intended use in relation to accident prevention and driver safety.

I can see Robin that we could go on forever, so lets cut to the chase.
I know from past threads that you absolutely love your Nissan Patrol, and I am exactly the same way about my troopy.
You went out of your way recently to purchase one of the last live axle, 4.5 petrol patrols and I reckon you did well.
You see I like patrols BUT I love my troopy even more as we have had many adventures together, been in some terrifying situations when I thought I would have to walk home, but she has never let me down but I have let her down from time to time by taking her beyond what she was designed to do....we have done a lot together.
I know out there are owners of pajeros,prados,discos,defenders,rodeos,bt50s,rangers,etc,etc who are not only happy with their choices but would not exchange them for anything else.
Now I know you feel exactly the same way with your patrol.

Think about all the designing and engineering, the countless hours and
kilometers of testing to get just 1 model of any vehicle to the stage where it can be marketed and sold to an eager public, and you are trying to tell us THEY got it wrong and then you go on then to try and tell us how to fix that which ain't broke, because you read a report which you have miss represented.
Robin enjoy your Patrol and stop bashing those who choose something else and stop trying to know it all....you don't.

Rebakk above you posted that i said

"you cannot be serious and believe that abs and stability control would prevent a roll over after it slid over the edge of that decline and since only a few vehicles have those"

The posts above show that I have made no such statement.
As long as you you place a spin on things and then comment on your own spin then it is pointless trying to have sensible discussion.

We could also mention that the army has a special license to drive troopys.
I love troopys, but there's no denying they've got one of the highest COG's of anything out there.
I thought wheel spacers were invented for troopy owners?

Robin

Thanks for providing the link to that research. I have had a quick look and downloaded it for a more thorough look later.

One interesting thing, the research found suspension air bags could be a contributing factor to roll overs and made the point the pressure needs to be equalised on each side. The research is well worth a read.

Interesting that the research points in the opposite direction to much current after market practise in 4x4s. Raising vehicles and carrying big loads up high on roof racks appears very unsound for stability.


Flynnie

Also just a general observation - on dirt roads with too many drivers there's a reluctance to lock the hubs and slip it into 4wd.

There is that resistance Phil , I have observed it many times in convoys, its a reason I have always keep the auto hubs in my Patrols.

Yep, I'll never understand some drivers reluctance to use 4wd on dirt roads. It seems like some sort of childish game of 'chicken'.

Speed a probable issue also??

I have heard people bragging about how they "only had to engage four wheel drive twice" on the Simpson Desert and similar. It was almost as if using four wheel drive was a sign of weakness. Up till now I thought this reluctance to use four wheel drive was mainly a desert thing but seems it is much more widespread.

Perhaps there is an unfounded fear of excessive fuel consumption or wear and tear (both untrue), perhaps it is a kind of laziness - can't be bothered to stop and lock the hubs or ignorance of the need to lock them and how to do it and then engage four wheel drive.

It would be interesting to know if the troopy was in two wheel drive or four wheel drive at the time it left the road.

Flynnie

Looks to me like the car has under-steered off the side of the road, then fell over the edge which would have tipped over many 4WD's due to the drop & the speed the car was still holding.

It was probably still running highway pressures too meaning traction was limited on the road surface marbles...

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Post Removed by Request Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

Folks,
As a parent of one of the less injured children involved, I'd like to add how distressing this post is thus far.

I have heard a bit of the incident so far from my daughter and would like to add my piece to this post.

. In her view the vehicle appears to have simply gone to far to the edge in heavy fog, trying to avoid a large pot hole in the road.
. Yes they are very lucky and injuries apart from one child, who I also know well, are thankfully and remarkably all injuries are manageable
. Speed was not a factor
. Frankly, seat belts saved the kids
. There may also have been roll bars internally, as also mentioned
. Luggage on top of vehicle, not inside also helped keeping objects away from occupants, but obviously changed the roll angle.

I personally think the luck in this case will lead to learnings that will probably go into further driver training etc. While not aware of any lack of knowledge of the driver, I believe experience and training are always the major factors in off road type events.

The extra head height, belts and bars on the troopie has to be an advantage. Myself having a Prado, know how low the roof is for the 3rd seats! Not sure if I can in good conscience use them again...!

My daughter loved the camp at Woolangara and thought the leaders and experience was fantastic.. While she is badly shaken already she wants to do the stage 2 and Ill trust the outdoor centre to move on.

Finally, the first thing shared to me when my child arrived home was how calm and 'professional' the driver was after the accident - and how sad the media was in photographing a trapped child during...

Maybe when the dust settles and investigations complete I'll be able to update the forum about what actually happened and what is/can be done better.

Max

MaxSandy thankfully your child is safe and well, I have worked in an industry that uses these cars for over 20 + years, only 3 times I have known of a roll over and unfortunately 1 was a fatality, driven safely they are a great vehicle.

Unfortunately people on this site believe it is better to ASSUME and respond accordingly, than to get there facts right and comment, I have before and probably now been admonished for making derogatory remarks about this site but I am a see it and say it type of person.

Most people on this site would make great journalists, you know the ones, Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

May only good things come from this Accident.